Tariffs Trade And Trump's Policies

This episode provides an in-depth look into the complexities of tariffs, examining their historical evolution and current implications within global trade policies. It raises critical questions about the effectiveness of tariffs as a protective measure for local industries and their impact on the economy.

• Overview of the historical context of tariffs 
• Discussion of Trump’s America First trade policy and proposed tariffs 
• Analysis of current trade deficits affecting various industries 
• Examination of the 2018 US-China trade war and its fallout 
• Consideration of economic costs and consumer price implications 
• Exploration of the role tariffs play in geopolitical tensions 
• Innovative use of tariffs to combat drug trafficking 
• Insights into the withdrawal from global agreements 
• Reactions from international leaders and potential implications 
• Final thoughts on the future of tariffs and trade policies

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Chapters

• 0:04 Exploring Trade Tariffs and Their Impact
• 16:41 Global Trade Tariff Impacts and Strategy
• 30:37 Global Trade Tariffs and Strategies

Transcript

Tony Hines: 0:04

Hello, tony Hines. Here You're listening to the Chain Reaction Podcast, all about supply chain advantage. Well, thanks for stopping by today. Great episode coming your way in just a few moments. Stick around, stay tuned. Find out more Well tariffs, their history and Trump's plans. That's today's episode.

Tony Hines: 0:30

Remember this "I'm a big believer in tariffs. I think tariffs are the most beautiful word. This is what Donald Trump said about tariffs. In this episode, I'm going to look at tariffs a brief history of what trade tariffs have been and what they do and I'm going to look at the recent experience of trade tariffs, since both President Trump as the 45th President, president Biden as the 46th, and Donald Trump as the 47th President plans with tariffs. He likes tariffs a lot, as you can see. He likes tariffs a lot.

Tony Hines: 1:05

As you can see, the history of trade tariffs is quite extensive and it's evolved over the centuries, and here's a brief overview. The word that Trump loves so much, which is tariff, has its roots from the Italian word tarifa, which itself derived from the Arabic word tarif, meaning notification or inventory of fees to be paid. It made its way into the European languages through trade and commerce during the Middle Ages, when Arabic-speaking merchants played a significant role in Mediterranean trade. Over time, it evolved and became incorporated into European languages, including English, and it's transformed history, hasn't it? Tariffs, customs duties, or customs and excise as we call it in the United Kingdom, tariffs have been used for centuries as a means to control trade and generate revenue. Ancient civilizations like Greece and Rome imposed tariffs on goods entering their territories and Rome imposed tariffs on goods entering their territories. During the Middle Ages, tariffs were used by European kingdoms to control the flow of goods and protect local industries. In the 18th and 19th century, the United States Tariffs Act 1789 was one of the first acts signed into law by the first Congress. It aimed to promote trade and raise revenue for the federal government. Many European countries used tariffs to protect their economies from foreign competition and to raise funds for their governments. If we go to the post-World War II period, we can see there was a global shift towards free trade and tariffs were reduced significantly. The General Agreement on Tariff and Trade, the GATT, was established in 1947 at Bretton Woods to promote international trade by reducing tariffs and other trade barriers. The Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930 raised tariffs significantly, but it was later seen as a factor that worsened the Great Depression.

Tony Hines: 3:04

Tariffs continue to be used as a tool of trade policy, but their role has evolved. They're now often used to address trade imbalances, protect specific industries and respond to unfair trade practices. The recent resurgence of tariffs, particularly by the United States under the Trump administration, has reignited debates about the effectiveness and impact on the global economy. Tariffs have historically served three primary purposes to raise revenues for government. To restrict imports and protect domestic producers from foreign competition. And to reach reciprocity agreements that reduce trade barriers. Trade tariffs in the past decade have had mixed results, with varying degrees of success and challenges. One of the main reasons behind President Trump's interest in tariffs is to reduce the trade deficits that the United States runs with major leading economies in China, mexico, canada and the European Union, particularly Germany and Italy, japan and Vietnam.

Tony Hines: 4:13

To understand Trump's proposed tariffs, let's take a look at the America First trade policy. Recently, president Trump's proposed tariffs have sparked intense debate and discussion. These tariffs are a critical part of his broader strategy to reshape international trade and protect domestic industries. By imposing tariffs of up to 25% on imports from countries like Mexico and Canada, trump aims to redress concerns about illegal immigration, drug trafficking and trade imbalances. America's first trade policy emphasises prioritising American interests and reducing the trade deficit. By imposing these tariffs, he aims to protect American jobs and industries from foreign competition, and the main aims are 1. To protect domestic industries. 2. Address trade imbalances. 3. Reduce dependence on foreign countries for essential goods and materials is a matter of national security, and those are the main reasons. So let's have a look at the numbers behind the trade deficit as of November 2024.

Tony Hines: 5:22

The US trade deficit stood at $78.2 billion, with exports totalling $273.4 billion and imports reaching $351.6 billion. The trade deficit has been increasing, reflecting ongoing economic challenges and shifts in global trade dynamics. Countries with major trade deficits with the US include China $279 billion in 2023, include China $279 billion in 2023, mexico $152 billion in 2023, vietnam $104 billion, germany $83 billion, japan $71 billion, canada $68 billion, ireland $65 billion, south Korea $51 billion, taiwan $48 billion and Italy $ 44 billion. They're the top 10. Several US industries are heavily impacted by trade deficits, including manufacturing, technology, textiles, agriculture and energy, and they face many challenges, such as job losses, reduced market share and competition from cheap imported goods. Adapting to trade deficits and navigating these global challenges are essential.

Tony Hines: 6:38

Trade deficits have long been a significant aspect of the global economy. For the United States, the trade deficit has continued to grow, presenting unique challenges and opportunities for various industries. A trade deficit occurs when a country imports more than it exports in goods and services. For the United States, major trade deficits exist with countries like we've mentioned China, mexico, vietnam, canada too. These deficits reflect a complex interplay of consumer demand, currency valuation, economic policies and global market dynamics. Valuation, economic policies and global market dynamics the industries most affected by trade deficits we've just mentioned manufacturing technology, textiles and apparel, agriculture and energy.

Tony Hines: 7:20

So what can be done to remain competitive and resilient? Well, a number of things. Diversification of supply chains by companies, reducing reliance on any single country or region. This approach mitigates risks associated with trade disruptions and tariffs. Local sourcing Increasing local sourcing can help support domestic production and caters to consumer demand for locally made products. Technological innovation, investing in new technologies and automation improves efficiency and reduces production costs, enabling companies to compete with cheaper imported goods. Expand the markets, enter new markets helps increase exports and balance those trade deficits. So look to emerging markets, strengthening trade relationships with existing partners and so on. Reduce costs implementing cost-cutting measures and optimizing operations allows companies to remain competitive in pricing without compromising quality. Trade deficits remain a significant challenge for US industries, but through innovation, diversification and strategic adaptation, these sectors continue to thrive in the global market. It's essential to sustain economic growth and competitiveness, and that's why Trump likes the word that beautiful word tariff. He thinks that will do the job, but let's take a deeper look at whether it will or not.

Tony Hines: 8:58

The US trade war with China began in 2018 under the Trump administration. It saw both countries impose tariffs on billions of dollars worth of goods. This led to a reduction in trade between the two nations, with US exports to China falling by 26.3% and Chinese exports to the US declining by 8.5%. Interestingly, the trade war created opportunities for other countries, increasing overall global trade by 3%, as the bystander nations stepped in to fill the gaps. Us consumers faced higher prices for certain goods due to the tariffs, and there was no significant return of manufacturing jobs to the United States, which was a promise when they were introduced. Sectors targeted by retaliatory tariffs experienced negative impacts, with some industries struggling to cope with the increased costs. The tariffs disrupted global supply chains, forcing companies to seek alternative sources and strategies, such as friend-shoring, shifting productions to countries with more favourable trade relations. The trade war marked a departure from the long-term trend of tariff liberalisation, raising questions about the future of global trade. The tariffs introduced a level of economic uncertainty affecting business investment decisions and market stability. Overall, while trade tariffs have been used as a tool to address trade imbalances and protect domestic industries, their success has been mixed with significant costs to consumers and disruption to global trade flows. The long-term effects continue to be debated among economists and policymakers.

Tony Hines: 10:32

Tariffs are essentially taxes on imports, which can lead to higher price goods. This increase in cost is often passed on to consumers, leading to higher prices for everyday items. Higher tariffs can reduce the volume of trade between the US and other countries, and this can negatively impact industries that rely on imported materials or export their products. Tariffs disrupt global supply chains, making it more expensive and complicated for businesses to source materials and components. While tariffs might protect some domestic industries, they can also hurt manufacturers that rely on imported materials. For example, tariffs on steel and aluminium or aluminum can increase production costs for manufacturers of automobiles. Retaliatory tariffs from other countries can hurt US farmers by reducing their export markets, and this was seen during the first term of Trump's presidency when China imposed tariffs on US agricultural products.

Tony Hines: 11:28

Economists predict that increased tariffs could reduce the country's economic growth. For instance, the Trump-Biden tariffs are estimated to reduce long-term GDP by 0.2%. Higher tariffs can also lead to job losses in industries that are negatively impacted by increased costs and reduced trade. The Trump-Biden tariffs are estimated to have reduced employment by 142,000 full-time equivalent jobs Overall. While tariffs can be used to protect domestic industries and generate federal revenue, they also come with significant economic costs and can lead to higher prices for consumers, reduce trade and increase job losses in certain sectors.

Tony Hines: 12:09

Tariffs on critical minerals, such as rare earth metals, can disrupt global supply chains. China's trade embargo on critical minerals to the United States has imposed export restrictions, which can lead to higher prices and supply shortages in those critical minerals. Tariffs on imports from China, including EVs and lithium-ion batteries, can increase costs for manufacturers and consumers alike. Let's take a look at how Trump's tariffs could drive up the cost of batteries, evs and more. This could slow down the adoption of EVs and hinder the growth of clean energy. Tariffs on semiconductors and other high-tech components can lead to higher production costs for tech companies. Tech components can lead to higher production costs for tech companies. This could result in increased prices for consumer electronics, such as smartphones and laptops, and potentially slow down innovation and technological advancements. Tariffs could also drive up the cost of batteries, evs and more, and all these put together means perhaps a less competitive market. Overall, tariffs can create economic uncertainty, disrupt global trade and impact various industries and markets.

Tony Hines: 13:17

Tariffs can create tensions between countries, leading to retaliatory measures and escalating trade wars. Protectionism is not necessarily good for trade or the global economy. Countries may adopt protectionist policies to shield domestic industries, which can lead to trade disputes and geopolitical tension. Tariffs can disrupt global supply chains, affecting industries and economies worldwide, and this leads to economic instability and increased competition for resources, potentially heightening conflict. Tariffs can sometimes lead to negotiations and trade agreements as countries seek to resolve disputes and reach mutually beneficial solutions. In some cases, tariffs can encourage countries to cooperate economically, leading to stronger trade relations and reducing conflict. Overall, the impact of tariffs on conflict depends on various factors, including specific policies, the countries involved and the broader geopolitical context. While tariffs can sometimes lead to increased tensions, they can also provide opportunities for negotiation and cooperation.

Tony Hines: 14:28

President Donald Trump was sworn in for his second term as president. In his inaugural address, he declared that the golden age of America begins right now and promised to bring the United States out of what he described as a period of decline. He emphasized themes of national unity, economic prosperity and a strong pursuit of excellence. Trump also mentioned his plans to sign a series of executive actions and reiterated his commitment to putting America first. The speech was delivered inside the Capitol Rotunda due to the cold weather. President Trump emphasized that enacting tariffs on other countries would be a way to raise US revenue and avoid extra taxes on Americans. He stated instead of taxing our citizens to enrich other countries, we will tariff and tax foreign countries to enrich our citizens. He also mentioned that his administration would create an external revenue service to collect tariffs, duties and revenue. The focus on tariffs is part of his broader economic strategy to prioritize American sovereignty and prosperity. President Trump emphasized his commitment to revitalizing the American auto industry by ending the Green New Deal and revoking the electric vehicles mandate. He promised to make American manufacturing more appealing to automakers and to protect American workers and families through an overhaul of the trade system. Regarding oil, trump announced the withdrawal of the United States from the Paris climate deal to boost US oil and gas production. He declared a national energy emergency to significantly expand drilling and scrap upcoming stringent pollution standards for cars and trucks. Drill, drill, drill, baby, he said, renaming the Gulf of Mexico, as the Gulf of America was also mentioned in the inauguration speech, as was taking back the Panama Canal, which Trump said was now run by the Chinese. So there we have it.

Tony Hines: 16:41

Well, on the face of it, the new US presidency under Donald J Trump is expected to have significant impacts on trade and global supply chains, and this is what many are saying. With regard to tariffs, trump has already indicated that's a beautiful word, he likes it a lot and Trump has a preference for using tariffs as a policy tool. This could lead to increased tariffs on imports from countries such as China, mexico, canada and the EU. It's likely to lead to trade wars if those tariffs are introduced and there'll be retaliation from other nations as the tariffs come into force. The potential for escalating these trade wars could disrupt global supply chains and it could lead to higher cost for importing and exporting goods because it will create more friction in the supply chain.

Tony Hines: 17:26

What sort of supply chain strategies are we likely to see as a consequence of tariff introductions? If they come Well, companies might need to localize some suppliers or regionalise some supply chains to avoid tariffs and ensure reliability. No doubt there'll be lots of manoeuvring and lots of movement that will try to avoid the tariffs. Essentially, that's what big multinational companies will be trying to do, and in fact, the tariffs could have a harmful effect on industries based and located in the United States. So the administration has to be very careful what they do with tariffs.

Tony Hines: 18:03

And I'm sure when the tariffs do come into force, they won't be such a blunt instrument. They'll focus on select industries. Otherwise, it could do severe damage to the whole economy and I'm sure that's not intended. Otherwise, it could do severe damage to the whole economy and I'm sure that's not intended. Businesses are likely to diversify their suppliers and adopt dual supply chains to mitigate geopolitical risks. They're already doing this, so it won't be anything new for them. Friction could also be reduced by introducing physical AI and making sure that AI plays its role in creating efficiency in the supply chain, and the new presidency has already indicated willingness to invest quite heavily in artificial intelligence to improve industry. Increased tariffs could lead to higher product costs for consumers, contributing to inflation and you might recall during the last Donald Trump presidency to inflation. And you might recall during the last Donald Trump presidency, inflation was bumped up and consumer prices did rise, despite the talk that it was about protection and protecting the economy and making lives better. So the record on tariffs so far isn't great.

Tony Hines: 19:11

With regard to geopolitical tensions, the new administration's policies might strain relationships with key trading partners, affecting global trade dynamics. Of course that might be the intention. The intention might be to stimulate lots of debate and lots of maneuvering by other countries that works to the advantage of the United States. It's like a game of chess, isn't it? And the bolder you are with your moves, then the opponent can move into positions they didn't want to move into, and I'm guessing that this is one of the tactics being used by the new US government. The new US presidency is expected to introduce significant change to trade policies, which will have a ripple effect on global supply chains. May not be a tsunami, but there'll certainly be a ripple. Companies will need to adapt by localising, diversifying and preparing for potential disruptions to remain resilient, efficient and effective.

Tony Hines: 20:22

Franklin D Roosevelt pointed to one of the main causes of the Great Depression having been a policy failure by the United States government at the time to impose more tariffs to protect industry, and that was seen as something that damaged the economy rather than protected it. He called it the road to ruin by inviting retaliation, causing further problems in investment and trade. When the US brought tariffs down at that point, trade began to flourish. Looking back from today, it seems rather easy now to understand the economics that led to that problem. But have the lessons been learned or will they simply be remade again?

Tony Hines: 21:01

Certainly, in Trump's desire to make America great again, he's said that tariffs are an important weapon in the armory. He likes the word tariff, he goes on about it endlessly and he's been quite threatening to use it against other countries to protect American interests. It always seems appealing when you want to protect a home industry against foreign trade because it's taking away jobs, but actually it may be that the industry that it's pulling away needs to shape up, innovate and reform to compete more effectively against that foreign trade. You can understand tariffs being introduced for the purpose of protecting an industry when another nation is taking subsidies to bolster up and make their own country's exports look better than the goods you can buy at home, and tariffs in those cases can protect trade, but it has to be very selective. Germany and China both run enormous, giant trade surpluses, but they're both suffering from poor economic growth. It's doubtful that tariffs would overnight transform trade inside the United States and protect industries and protect people's jobs.

Tony Hines: 22:18

On some occasions, mr Trump has referred to tariffs replacing income tax, and he even said in the inauguration speech forget about the Internal Revenue Service. We're going to tax countries abroad and we're going to form the External Revenue Service, and that means tariffs are going to pay to develop the United States. But that might be an Alice in Wonderland moment. History tells us something different. One of the reasons that President Trump has proposed a 10% tariff on Chinese imports, of course, is due to the concerns over the flow of fentanyl from China to the United States via Mexico and Canada. Trump has stated that this measure is intended to pressure China to curb the trafficking of this dangerous opioid. It's part of a broader strategy to address both trade imbalances and the serious issues of drug trafficking.

Tony Hines: 23:24

President Trump has announced that he plans to impose tariffs of up to 25% on goods from Mexico and Canada starting February 1st. He cited concerns over unauthorised migration and the flow of illicit drugs, including fentanyl, as the reasons for the tariffs. Canadian officials, including Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Finance Minister Dominic LeBlanc, have expressed their intention to respond if the tariffs are implemented. They believe that such tariffs could harm the strong trade relationship between the two countries and have discussed potential retaliatory measures. It's definitely a developing situation that could have significant economic implications. Trump's proposed tariffs would probably have a significant effect on the United States-Mexico-Canada agreement. He threatened to impose 25% tariffs as early as the 1st of February on imports from Canada and Mexico. The aim to bolster domestic manufacturing, but could lead to unintended consequences. Manufacturing, but could lead to unintended consequences that might disrupt supply chains, inflate costs and heighten market uncertainty, posing challenges to industries like automotive and trucking, not to mention upsetting near neighbors, canada and Mexico. The USMCA is due for review in 2026. Of course, the USMCA is the latest trade agreement following on from the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement, where the same countries were involved under NAFTA.

Tony Hines: 24:51

The question is are tariffs the best way to get such a change in trade policy and action with trading partners? Tariffs, of course, can be a powerful tool for influencing trade policy and prompting action from trading partners, but they come with both benefits and drawbacks, and here are some of the main points. The benefits of tariffs they protect domestic industries, as we said earlier. Tariffs can shield domestic industries from foreign competition, which allows them to grow and compete effectively. It can generate revenues for the government and it can be used as a lever to better negotiate more favourable trade terms or address specific issues such as we've just mentioned, drug trafficking. The drawbacks of tariffs of course, retaliation. Trading partners may respond with their own tariffs, leading to a trade war, and that can harm both economies. It can drive things downwards, downwards, in a downward spiral. There'll be higher costs for consumers if tariffs push up prices for imported goods, they'll simply be passed on to consumers. Tariffs can also disrupt supply chains, affecting production costs and lead times, and add to the bureaucracy, the friction in the supply chain. The economic impact prolonged use of tariffs can lead to inefficiencies and reduced economic growth.

Tony Hines: 26:11

While tariffs can be effective in achieving certain policy goals, they're not without risk and they have consequences. It's often a balancing act to use them effectively without causing undue harm to the economy or to international relations. Historically, tariffs have been used primarily to address economic issues, such as protecting domestic industries and balancing trade deficits. However, the use of tariffs to combat drug trafficking is a relatively new and unique approach. The idea behind imposing tariffs on countries like China, mexico and Canada is to pressure them into taking stronger action against the production and trafficking of illicit drugs, particularly fentanyl. This strategy aims to leverage economic measures to achieve a non-economic goal reducing the flow of dangerous drugs into the United States. And while it's innovative, it also carries risks, as we said trade disputes, retaliation and potential harm to the broader economic relations. Additionally, the effectiveness of those tariffs in curbing drug trafficking remains uncertain, as drug traffickers often find new routes and methods to circumvent controls. It assumes that the countries in question have complete control, and they may not do. Criminal gangs, of course, are international, and they move stuff around just like multinational companies. It's a complex issue with no easy solution, and it'll be interesting to see how it unfolds. My take, though, is a lot of this is posturing by the new administration to get better deals, better arrangements and to get some of the countries to take their first share of the burden and to pay more of the cost, and that was more or less the message in the inauguration speech. Using tariffs to combat drug trafficking might leverage greater negotiating power and secure a more favourable trade agreement. It applies pressure on the trading partners to address those broader concerns, not just the economic issues. It's a negotiating tactic as part of a mix of strategies which will be pushed forward by the new administration.

Tony Hines: 28:14

Then we come to the withdrawal from the World Health Organization and the Paris Agreement on Climate Change. The recent announcement by the United States withdrawing from the World Health Organization and the Paris Agreement on Climate Change have most certainly stirred up the pot. President Trump has ordered the US to withdraw from WHO, citing the organization's handling and participating in initiatives which could have significant impacts on global health. Similarly, trump's also ordered the United States to withdraw from the Paris Agreement on climate change. This move signals a step back from global efforts to combat climate change and could undermine international cooperation on this critical issue. Both decisions have been met with criticism from various experts and organisations, who argue these withdrawals could weaken global health and environmental efforts. Of course, if the US does withdraw from the WHO, it leaves many American citizens vulnerable against pandemics in the future. And again, is this part of a serious initiative or a posturing issue, which is to reorganize the World Health Organization in some way and to get other nations to pay more of the cost, to share the burden in what the American administrations see as too costly for their citizens? In the US, they pay somewhere between 15 and 20% of the total cost presently, so the move to withdraw could indeed be seen as a way to pressure other member states to increase their contributions and share the financial burden more equitably. While the withdrawal could have serious implications for global health initiatives, it might also be a strategic move to renegotiate terms and push forward reforms for the organisation. The US has historically played a crucial role in supporting global health, and its withdrawal could leave a gap that other countries would need to fill. The situation is complex and it's tricky. Let's take each of the issues in turn fair contributions. This would ensure that all member states contribute fairly to the budget and alleviate the financial burden on any single country, fostering a greater sense of a shared responsibility, and that may be part of this renegotiation.

Tony Hines: 30:37

The WHO could also innovate. It could use AI, for example. Leveraging advanced AI technologies can revolutionize humanitarian interventions, streamline research processes and enhance drug administration. Ai can analyze vast data sets to identify health trends, predict outbreaks and optimize resource allocation. Encouraging the adoption of cutting-edge technologies and practices within the WHO can improve its efficiency and effectiveness. Redistributed manufacture and licensing could become central to the reorganization and development of perhaps a World Health Organization fit for purpose in the 21st century. By redistributing manufacturing capabilities and establishing licensing programs, the WHO can ensure that all nations have access to essential medicines and health supplies when needed. This approach can enhance global health resilience and reduce dependency on a few manufacturing hubs. It could empower local production. Supporting local manufacturing initiatives can boost the self-sufficiency of nations and improve their ability to respond to health crisis. It's a compelling vision for the future of global health collaboration, but there's a long way to go.

Tony Hines: 31:54

President Trump has also sent a message to President Putin to stop the ridiculous war in Ukraine and he says if he doesn't, he's going to put sanctions in place, he's going to put tariffs in place and he's going to tax all Russian goods into the US. So he's going to hit them in the pocket, basically, if they don't respond positively. So here's the big question Will President Trump's gamble on placing tariffs on near neighbours Mexico and Canada at 25% and increasing the tariffs further on China by a further 10% add pressure on those economies? Is he trying to get them to pay more for the right to access the US markets, which are important to them, or is he really trying to use the tariff to strengthen the economy, reducing energy prices and curbing inflation? If it's the latter, is it really likely to do that, or will it, as many people think, backfire and cause inflation to go higher and consumer prices will rise as a result of the tariffs.

Tony Hines: 33:09

If history has taught us anything, it's taught us this While tariffs can offer short-term protection for certain industries, the long-term benefits of free trade often outweigh these advantages. Free trade fosters innovation, economic efficiency and growth, making it a crucial component of a thriving global economy. If we look to the historical examples, the British Empire shifted from protectionist policies like the Corn Laws to free trade in the mid-19th century, and it fuelled economic growth and helped Britain become a global economic power. Post-world War II, the establishment of GATT and later the World Trade Organization helped reduce trade barriers, leading to significant economic growth and development worldwide. Tariffs usually lead to higher consumer prices, they attract retaliation from other countries wanting to protect their economies, and they also lead to inefficiencies in domestic industries which become less competitive in the global market. Well, that's the big gamble. And of course, he's going to pressurize Russia with tariffs, taxes and sanctions to come to an agreement. And perhaps that isn't such a big gamble, because Russia is suffering financially and it will suffer more if the warning's not heeded.

Tony Hines: 34:31

Well, that's it for the episode looking at the new president and his administration, and trade and tariffs, and how it might shape up in the new presidency. The one thing's certain we're in for exciting times, so it's fasten your seatbelts, sit back, get strapped in, hang on to your hat and grip those arms on that seat. Be safe. I'll see you next time on the Chain Reaction Podcast, but before I head off, don't forget to subscribe and you'll be first to know when new episodes are out. So that's it for now. I'm Tony Hines. I'm signing off. Take care Bye for now. Thank you.

Announcer: 35:58

You've been listening to the chain reaction podcast written, presented and produced by tony hines.